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	<title>Comments on: More on Rising Salaries</title>
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	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18441</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18441</guid>
		<description>I think the majority of the increase in price valuation is the supply/demand.  Teams were selling for 10 million$ 30-40 years ago, which means something like a 16x multiple in valuation (i.e., doubled in valuation 4 times, meaning doubles every 7 to 10 years).  That&#039;s a 7-10% increase in valuation, which is also the increase in payroll and the increase in revenue.

But actual profits have never even approached anything where a DCF would justify such a jump in valuation.  And certainly future profits won&#039;t justify it either, if teams keep spending like this.

The modus operandi is to spend 50-65% of your revenue, and be one of the 30 collectors of an MLB team (or one of the 120 collectors of a major sports team).

You also try to leverage that into cable deals (MSG, YES, NESN, TBS, WGN, etc).  But mostly, you are buying a Picasso, or as Phil said, a vintage car.

If you can squeeze the players, like the NFL, you get the bonus of also turning profits, and thereby increasing you valuation (i.e., MLB would be 2x revenue, while NFL would be 4x revenue, or whathaveyou).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the majority of the increase in price valuation is the supply/demand.  Teams were selling for 10 million$ 30-40 years ago, which means something like a 16x multiple in valuation (i.e., doubled in valuation 4 times, meaning doubles every 7 to 10 years).  That&#8217;s a 7-10% increase in valuation, which is also the increase in payroll and the increase in revenue.</p>
<p>But actual profits have never even approached anything where a DCF would justify such a jump in valuation.  And certainly future profits won&#8217;t justify it either, if teams keep spending like this.</p>
<p>The modus operandi is to spend 50-65% of your revenue, and be one of the 30 collectors of an MLB team (or one of the 120 collectors of a major sports team).</p>
<p>You also try to leverage that into cable deals (MSG, YES, NESN, TBS, WGN, etc).  But mostly, you are buying a Picasso, or as Phil said, a vintage car.</p>
<p>If you can squeeze the players, like the NFL, you get the bonus of also turning profits, and thereby increasing you valuation (i.e., MLB would be 2x revenue, while NFL would be 4x revenue, or whathaveyou).</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18378</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 12:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18378</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I will grant that owners do care about more than just profits, but I just don’t buy these other motivations as large determinants of their behavior.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I will grant that owners do care about more than just profits, but I just don’t buy these other motivations as large determinants of their behavior.
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		<title>By: Phil Birnbaum</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18262</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Birnbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 04:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18262</guid>
		<description>Hi, J.C.,

I&#039;m not arguing that owners don&#039;t care about profits *at all,* just that there is another factor involved too, the utility of pure ownership.

I think of it like owning a vintage car.  There are two sources of return from the car -- the utility gained by driving it, and the increase in market value.  If you don&#039;t count both, it looks irrational to buy the car -- it appreciates at 3% (say), while a CD earns 5%.  But if it&#039;s worth the 2% to you to be able to drive it and elicit stares and fame and pride, it may be worth it.

And the fact that the owner of the car is willing to accept a lower return (or even a negative return) doesn&#039;t mean that he wouldn&#039;t prefer a positive one -- by lobbying the government for vintage car subsidies and the like.  I guess at the margin, the owner-for-fun is as eager for an extra dollar as the owner-for-profit.  It&#039;s just that the owner-for-fun is willing to pay a certain amount for the experience of ownership, an amount that may (Steinbrenner) or may not (Harold Ballard) be tied to the success of the team.

You may be right that pride of ownership may not be a large determinant of owners&#039; behavior ... but there should be *some* financial cost to pride of ownership, simply because of supply and demand.  There are many more people who would prefer to own a team than a business of equal risk profile, just for the fun and fame.

And, also, why else would sports teams have such small operating profits compared to their market value?  Perhaps owners look into the future and see an explosion of revenue coupled with a lowering of union demands?

I&#039;m not sure what you mean about not being able to use money to proxy utility ... if a team has EBITDA of 6% of market enterprise value, and equally risky investments are available at 10%, can we not estimate the owner&#039;s private utility of ownership at 4% of market value per year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, J.C.,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not arguing that owners don&#8217;t care about profits *at all,* just that there is another factor involved too, the utility of pure ownership.</p>
<p>I think of it like owning a vintage car.  There are two sources of return from the car &#8212; the utility gained by driving it, and the increase in market value.  If you don&#8217;t count both, it looks irrational to buy the car &#8212; it appreciates at 3% (say), while a CD earns 5%.  But if it&#8217;s worth the 2% to you to be able to drive it and elicit stares and fame and pride, it may be worth it.</p>
<p>And the fact that the owner of the car is willing to accept a lower return (or even a negative return) doesn&#8217;t mean that he wouldn&#8217;t prefer a positive one &#8212; by lobbying the government for vintage car subsidies and the like.  I guess at the margin, the owner-for-fun is as eager for an extra dollar as the owner-for-profit.  It&#8217;s just that the owner-for-fun is willing to pay a certain amount for the experience of ownership, an amount that may (Steinbrenner) or may not (Harold Ballard) be tied to the success of the team.</p>
<p>You may be right that pride of ownership may not be a large determinant of owners&#8217; behavior &#8230; but there should be *some* financial cost to pride of ownership, simply because of supply and demand.  There are many more people who would prefer to own a team than a business of equal risk profile, just for the fun and fame.</p>
<p>And, also, why else would sports teams have such small operating profits compared to their market value?  Perhaps owners look into the future and see an explosion of revenue coupled with a lowering of union demands?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean about not being able to use money to proxy utility &#8230; if a team has EBITDA of 6% of market enterprise value, and equally risky investments are available at 10%, can we not estimate the owner&#8217;s private utility of ownership at 4% of market value per year?</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18196</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18196</guid>
		<description>If owners are maximizing something other than profits, then I guess we just have to throw our hands up in the air. If you to develop a model that predicts salaries in a different manner, I have no objection. But once we depart from using money to proxy utility, all decisions become tautological. And that&#039;s just not very interesting to me. Furthermore, if owners are such altruists why do they lobby for stadium subsidies, seek corporate sponsors for their stadiums, charge $7 for a beer, etc. I will grant that owners do care about more than just profits, but I just don&#039;t buy these other motivations as  large determinants of their behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If owners are maximizing something other than profits, then I guess we just have to throw our hands up in the air. If you to develop a model that predicts salaries in a different manner, I have no objection. But once we depart from using money to proxy utility, all decisions become tautological. And that&#8217;s just not very interesting to me. Furthermore, if owners are such altruists why do they lobby for stadium subsidies, seek corporate sponsors for their stadiums, charge $7 for a beer, etc. I will grant that owners do care about more than just profits, but I just don&#8217;t buy these other motivations as  large determinants of their behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Birnbaum</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18148</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Birnbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18148</guid>
		<description>I think the Picasso theory is the correct explanation.  As I wrote &lt;a href=&quot;http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-do-nhl-teams-make-so-little-money.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, it seems like every team owner makes a below-market return on the market value of his team.  I think that just reflects the market price of the ego boost and prestige of ownership.

Some owners don&#039;t just want to be owners – they want to be *winning* owners.  The supply of winning teams is limited, by definition, and so the price gets bid up.  

I think you have to think of a franchise not 100% as a firm, but partly as a firm and partly as a consumer good (consumed by the owner).  $2 million might be the marginal value of a win *to the fans*.  But if the marginal value *to the owner* is (say) $3 million, he&#039;ll wind up willing to pay $5 million per win. 

It seems to me that the value of the player to a team is his MRP plus the consumer surplus reaped by the owner.  This would explain high salaries without having to assume that owners are irrational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Picasso theory is the correct explanation.  As I wrote <a href="http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-do-nhl-teams-make-so-little-money.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, it seems like every team owner makes a below-market return on the market value of his team.  I think that just reflects the market price of the ego boost and prestige of ownership.</p>
<p>Some owners don&#8217;t just want to be owners – they want to be *winning* owners.  The supply of winning teams is limited, by definition, and so the price gets bid up.  </p>
<p>I think you have to think of a franchise not 100% as a firm, but partly as a firm and partly as a consumer good (consumed by the owner).  $2 million might be the marginal value of a win *to the fans*.  But if the marginal value *to the owner* is (say) $3 million, he&#8217;ll wind up willing to pay $5 million per win. </p>
<p>It seems to me that the value of the player to a team is his MRP plus the consumer surplus reaped by the owner.  This would explain high salaries without having to assume that owners are irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-18138</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-18138</guid>
		<description>I agree teams spend to their budget.

Heck, we do it in the corporate world.  We actually spend on things we don&#039;t need, just so that we can justify that we need that level of budget next year.  You&#039;d think we&#039;d be able bank the surplus, but no!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree teams spend to their budget.</p>
<p>Heck, we do it in the corporate world.  We actually spend on things we don&#8217;t need, just so that we can justify that we need that level of budget next year.  You&#8217;d think we&#8217;d be able bank the surplus, but no!</p>
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		<title>By: jpwf</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-17927</link>
		<dc:creator>jpwf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-17927</guid>
		<description>In an ealier post Studes mentioned his belief that the great influx of cheap young talent may be a factor driving up salaries.

Anyone who plays rotisserie baseball (keeper league) knows the phenomenon- it&#039;s called draft inflation.

Each team has a set budget to spend- and each teams spends that budget. In real baseball, I get the impression that most teams decide to spend $X and then spend approximately $X- no matter whether the value available is worth more or less than $X.

In Roto you can pretty much figure out what a player&#039;s &quot;value&quot; is (well his past value anyway- if you really knew his future value you&#039;d never lose). Some players- &quot;keepers&quot; are signed at something less than their real value. Every dollar &quot;saved&quot; is an extra dollar to spend on someone else.

To oversimplify- if you have 10 $20 players, and 5 are saved at an average of $10, the remaining 5 FAs are going to be signed for an average of $25-30. (It&#039;s not linear- $10 players may go for $11-12, $20 players for $25, $30 players for $40) 
In Rotisserrie this spending is rational.

Of course in most Roto leagues you can cut the guy after the year rather than being forced to keep him multiple years at $30.

I think this mechanism may be in play a bit, and would justify overpaying for the top talent in the short term- I think a misapplication of this principle may lead to overpaying for mediocrity (ie: Matthews, Pierre)- which is generally a bad move even in draft inflated roto leagues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an ealier post Studes mentioned his belief that the great influx of cheap young talent may be a factor driving up salaries.</p>
<p>Anyone who plays rotisserie baseball (keeper league) knows the phenomenon- it&#8217;s called draft inflation.</p>
<p>Each team has a set budget to spend- and each teams spends that budget. In real baseball, I get the impression that most teams decide to spend $X and then spend approximately $X- no matter whether the value available is worth more or less than $X.</p>
<p>In Roto you can pretty much figure out what a player&#8217;s &#8220;value&#8221; is (well his past value anyway- if you really knew his future value you&#8217;d never lose). Some players- &#8220;keepers&#8221; are signed at something less than their real value. Every dollar &#8220;saved&#8221; is an extra dollar to spend on someone else.</p>
<p>To oversimplify- if you have 10 $20 players, and 5 are saved at an average of $10, the remaining 5 FAs are going to be signed for an average of $25-30. (It&#8217;s not linear- $10 players may go for $11-12, $20 players for $25, $30 players for $40)<br />
In Rotisserrie this spending is rational.</p>
<p>Of course in most Roto leagues you can cut the guy after the year rather than being forced to keep him multiple years at $30.</p>
<p>I think this mechanism may be in play a bit, and would justify overpaying for the top talent in the short term- I think a misapplication of this principle may lead to overpaying for mediocrity (ie: Matthews, Pierre)- which is generally a bad move even in draft inflated roto leagues.</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-17846</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-17846</guid>
		<description>The point is that the only reason that an asset appreciates is because it will generate a profit.  The price of something is exactly equal to all future profits, discounted to present value.  

Unless that asset is a collectible, in which case, it&#039;s subject completely to supply and demand.

Sports teams seem to be valued like a dot.com, without any hope of getting those 40% margins.  They are much more like a consulting firm, with razor thin margins, and a workforce that is the product or service.

JC, Guy made a great point here, of which I followup: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/wins_and_payroll/#15

I&#039;d be interested to hear what your model would be like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is that the only reason that an asset appreciates is because it will generate a profit.  The price of something is exactly equal to all future profits, discounted to present value.  </p>
<p>Unless that asset is a collectible, in which case, it&#8217;s subject completely to supply and demand.</p>
<p>Sports teams seem to be valued like a dot.com, without any hope of getting those 40% margins.  They are much more like a consulting firm, with razor thin margins, and a workforce that is the product or service.</p>
<p>JC, Guy made a great point here, of which I followup: <a href="http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/wins_and_payroll/#15" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/wins_and_payroll/#15</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested to hear what your model would be like.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-17832</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-17832</guid>
		<description>Of course, in the long run, they do make money even if they are losing money on a cash flow basis.  Unless it&#039;s a really bad franchise, the value appreciates so that an owner that eventually sells the team (and most eventually do) are going to do well on the appreciation.  Of course, I don&#039;t know whether that fully compensates for any losses suffered in the meantime.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, in the long run, they do make money even if they are losing money on a cash flow basis.  Unless it&#8217;s a really bad franchise, the value appreciates so that an owner that eventually sells the team (and most eventually do) are going to do well on the appreciation.  Of course, I don&#8217;t know whether that fully compensates for any losses suffered in the meantime.</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/comment-page-1/#comment-17583</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/11/more-on-rising-salaries/#comment-17583</guid>
		<description>I would say that even if you factor in the windfall of the playoffs, that economically, it won&#039;t make sense.

Your last point is exactly what is probably happening, that the owner is collecting his Picasso, and he&#039;ll pay whatever it takes to make sure he owns it.  

There are only 30 MLB teams, and only 8 make the playoffs, and an owner will pay what it takes to win, if he thinks he&#039;s close.  Pirates, Royals, etc won&#039;t do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that even if you factor in the windfall of the playoffs, that economically, it won&#8217;t make sense.</p>
<p>Your last point is exactly what is probably happening, that the owner is collecting his Picasso, and he&#8217;ll pay whatever it takes to make sure he owns it.  </p>
<p>There are only 30 MLB teams, and only 8 make the playoffs, and an owner will pay what it takes to win, if he thinks he&#8217;s close.  Pirates, Royals, etc won&#8217;t do that.</p>
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