<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Should We Ban Vitamin B12?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dr. Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-80959</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-80959</guid>
		<description>There is no unequivocal minimum or maximum vitamin supplementation level as the knowledge base keeps changing.  For example, current vitamin D recommendations are now thought to be grossly inadequate by vitamin D researchers.

Given that folic acid and vitamin B12 are integrally involved in red blood cell (RBC) development, the endurance athlete benefits most when used in combination with erythropoietin (EPO), which increases RBC.  Only vegan, no animal products, athletes are likely to suffer pernicious anemia.

Vitamin B12 injections have been used by professional cyclists for decades (long before the availability of EPO).

Injecting B12 is now a euphemism for illegal ergogenic drugs and procedures (anabolic steroids, EPO, homologous blood doping, etc., and their masking agents), regardless of athlete protestations.

Baseball should take a page out of professional cycling (see http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080109/sp_nm/cycling_passport_dc).  

To keep drug testing from the control of baseball, athlete testing should be done by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), which is the drug testing organization for the Olympics and federations of sports that are participants in the Olympics.  The agency is independent of sport governing federations.

J.C. Bradbury poses an interesting incentive/disincentive program for eliminating drug use in baseball (NY Times: Let Baseball Players Police Themselves).  Penalties for athletes who cheat should, at a minimum, be as in professional cycling (one years salary) or better yet, one years salary for each year of illegal ergogenic drug use.  Illegal recreational drug use is controlled by the local and federal police, although I advocate enforcement is ineffective and poor public policy.

Unfortunately, athletes will be tempted by illegal ergogenic drugs as long as athletes are grossly overpaid.  This will not change until TV and TV advertising sponsors, companies who employ athletes as spokesmen, and sports fans are willing to pay these athletes.  When TV refuses to broadcast sporting events where there is illegal ergogenic drug use and endorsement contracts of druged athletes are recinded, then there athlete behavior may change.  I say may, since many Olympic athletes have used illegal ergogenic drugs, and many of these athletes are in very low profile sports that are very low-paying and have almost no commercial value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no unequivocal minimum or maximum vitamin supplementation level as the knowledge base keeps changing.  For example, current vitamin D recommendations are now thought to be grossly inadequate by vitamin D researchers.</p>
<p>Given that folic acid and vitamin B12 are integrally involved in red blood cell (RBC) development, the endurance athlete benefits most when used in combination with erythropoietin (EPO), which increases RBC.  Only vegan, no animal products, athletes are likely to suffer pernicious anemia.</p>
<p>Vitamin B12 injections have been used by professional cyclists for decades (long before the availability of EPO).</p>
<p>Injecting B12 is now a euphemism for illegal ergogenic drugs and procedures (anabolic steroids, EPO, homologous blood doping, etc., and their masking agents), regardless of athlete protestations.</p>
<p>Baseball should take a page out of professional cycling (see <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080109/sp_nm/cycling_passport_dc" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080109/sp_nm/cycling_passport_dc</a>).  </p>
<p>To keep drug testing from the control of baseball, athlete testing should be done by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), which is the drug testing organization for the Olympics and federations of sports that are participants in the Olympics.  The agency is independent of sport governing federations.</p>
<p>J.C. Bradbury poses an interesting incentive/disincentive program for eliminating drug use in baseball (NY Times: Let Baseball Players Police Themselves).  Penalties for athletes who cheat should, at a minimum, be as in professional cycling (one years salary) or better yet, one years salary for each year of illegal ergogenic drug use.  Illegal recreational drug use is controlled by the local and federal police, although I advocate enforcement is ineffective and poor public policy.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, athletes will be tempted by illegal ergogenic drugs as long as athletes are grossly overpaid.  This will not change until TV and TV advertising sponsors, companies who employ athletes as spokesmen, and sports fans are willing to pay these athletes.  When TV refuses to broadcast sporting events where there is illegal ergogenic drug use and endorsement contracts of druged athletes are recinded, then there athlete behavior may change.  I say may, since many Olympic athletes have used illegal ergogenic drugs, and many of these athletes are in very low profile sports that are very low-paying and have almost no commercial value.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79852</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79852</guid>
		<description>Hi all, just to chime in... I&#039;m a primary care physician.  I give a fair number of vitamin B12 shots.  For people who are B12 deficient (which usually means elderly patients, who are more likely to develop the autoimmune condition pernicious anemia and be unable to absorb B12, or people who are vegetarian/vegan, as B12 is only in animal products), it certainly helps with fatigue.  It anecdotally can help with mood and energy level as well -- I take a B complex vitamin daily.  Is there great evidence for its use?  Nope.  Any my pee (sorry if this is too much information) is bright yellow, because as a water soluble vitamin, if you take more than you body needs, you pee it right out.  So even if B12 could help performance, injecting more tahn  you need would lead you to pee it out.

Lidocaine is used to numb the area of an injection if it&#039;s a particularly large (&gt; 1-2 mL) injection; most standard shots such as flu shots are 0.5 mL.  B12 is rarely given in doses larger than 1 mL at a time, and it&#039;s given monthly.  So the B12 ain&#039;t for his joints and it ain&#039;t for B12.  Whether Clemens knew he wasn&#039;t getting B12 or is being disingenouous, I don&#039;t know.

NSIL Mike quotes Jose Canseco above.  Not sure how trustworthy he is (he&#039;s been pretty on the money so far), but let&#039;s not forget that Palmeiro and Tejada were reportedly both injecting B12; both have been outed in the Mitchell report for using PEDs.  And B12 is one of the few medications that might be legally and commonly prescribed that are usually injected (e.g. a reasonable ruse for steroids).

One other thing... Vioxx does not &quot;destroy&quot; your heart, as Roger suggested... there is a slight statistical increase in the number of heart attacks that people on Vioxx had, but a 45 year old pro athlete is unlikely to have a heart attack.  By the time Vioxx came off the market people knew of its potential... so if he took it, it was before anyone realized that it slightly increased risk of heart disease.  And Toradol (which he made sound like it was a hose tranquilizer) is essentially just very strong Motrin... it&#039;s just that it (like Winstrol and other steroids) is injectable only... so it&#039;s faster acting but alo could be used as a guise for steroid injection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all, just to chime in&#8230; I&#8217;m a primary care physician.  I give a fair number of vitamin B12 shots.  For people who are B12 deficient (which usually means elderly patients, who are more likely to develop the autoimmune condition pernicious anemia and be unable to absorb B12, or people who are vegetarian/vegan, as B12 is only in animal products), it certainly helps with fatigue.  It anecdotally can help with mood and energy level as well &#8212; I take a B complex vitamin daily.  Is there great evidence for its use?  Nope.  Any my pee (sorry if this is too much information) is bright yellow, because as a water soluble vitamin, if you take more than you body needs, you pee it right out.  So even if B12 could help performance, injecting more tahn  you need would lead you to pee it out.</p>
<p>Lidocaine is used to numb the area of an injection if it&#8217;s a particularly large (&gt; 1-2 mL) injection; most standard shots such as flu shots are 0.5 mL.  B12 is rarely given in doses larger than 1 mL at a time, and it&#8217;s given monthly.  So the B12 ain&#8217;t for his joints and it ain&#8217;t for B12.  Whether Clemens knew he wasn&#8217;t getting B12 or is being disingenouous, I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>NSIL Mike quotes Jose Canseco above.  Not sure how trustworthy he is (he&#8217;s been pretty on the money so far), but let&#8217;s not forget that Palmeiro and Tejada were reportedly both injecting B12; both have been outed in the Mitchell report for using PEDs.  And B12 is one of the few medications that might be legally and commonly prescribed that are usually injected (e.g. a reasonable ruse for steroids).</p>
<p>One other thing&#8230; Vioxx does not &#8220;destroy&#8221; your heart, as Roger suggested&#8230; there is a slight statistical increase in the number of heart attacks that people on Vioxx had, but a 45 year old pro athlete is unlikely to have a heart attack.  By the time Vioxx came off the market people knew of its potential&#8230; so if he took it, it was before anyone realized that it slightly increased risk of heart disease.  And Toradol (which he made sound like it was a hose tranquilizer) is essentially just very strong Motrin&#8230; it&#8217;s just that it (like Winstrol and other steroids) is injectable only&#8230; so it&#8217;s faster acting but alo could be used as a guise for steroid injection.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jaymee gabriel</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79851</link>
		<dc:creator>jaymee gabriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79851</guid>
		<description>Sorry but advocating Major League ball players police themselves is incredibly short sighted and irresponsible.

These guys already make millions.  They don&#039;t need any more money. Money would not induce those who choose to do drugs or steriods to quit.  Why should it when they can buy or do anything they want as it is already?

You want to clean up the sport?  Take AWAY all the big bucks we pay them.  Put them all on salaries of $100,00- $200,000 a year.  THEN see how many of them do steriods.  
1. Saving a $100,000 job wouldn&#039;t be worth the chance of getting caught.
2. These guys might learn the value of a buck and learn some fiscal and social responsibility.

And I blame all the steroid problems in sports on the fans and consumers who generate the players&#039; grotesque salaries by paying thru the nose for tickets and retail merchandise and 24 hour sports cable channels and the like. 

Boycott professional sports till the value goes down as well as the salaries.  Perhaps when players see the value of their sport plummet, it might shake them up enough to THEN police themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry but advocating Major League ball players police themselves is incredibly short sighted and irresponsible.</p>
<p>These guys already make millions.  They don&#8217;t need any more money. Money would not induce those who choose to do drugs or steriods to quit.  Why should it when they can buy or do anything they want as it is already?</p>
<p>You want to clean up the sport?  Take AWAY all the big bucks we pay them.  Put them all on salaries of $100,00- $200,000 a year.  THEN see how many of them do steriods.<br />
1. Saving a $100,000 job wouldn&#8217;t be worth the chance of getting caught.<br />
2. These guys might learn the value of a buck and learn some fiscal and social responsibility.</p>
<p>And I blame all the steroid problems in sports on the fans and consumers who generate the players&#8217; grotesque salaries by paying thru the nose for tickets and retail merchandise and 24 hour sports cable channels and the like. </p>
<p>Boycott professional sports till the value goes down as well as the salaries.  Perhaps when players see the value of their sport plummet, it might shake them up enough to THEN police themselves.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Heikoop</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79781</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Heikoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79781</guid>
		<description>What about Cortisone?  People just need to except that science is a part of sports.  Sometimes it may be dangerous, other times it may make the event more engaging and entertaining, and sometime it might be both.  Obviously baseball has been having some of its best financial seasons so the &#039;steroid&#039; era can&#039;t be all bad!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about Cortisone?  People just need to except that science is a part of sports.  Sometimes it may be dangerous, other times it may make the event more engaging and entertaining, and sometime it might be both.  Obviously baseball has been having some of its best financial seasons so the &#8216;steroid&#8217; era can&#8217;t be all bad!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79764</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79764</guid>
		<description>Roger may need some more of that B12 after digging his own grave during that 60 minutes interview.  His 10 minutes of broken-English denial did nothing but show one of the negative side-effects of this &quot;B-12&quot;: a short temper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger may need some more of that B12 after digging his own grave during that 60 minutes interview.  His 10 minutes of broken-English denial did nothing but show one of the negative side-effects of this &#8220;B-12&#8243;: a short temper.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: huop</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79351</link>
		<dc:creator>huop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79351</guid>
		<description>JC, McNamee&#039;s Lawyers claim there is some &quot;evidence&quot; that the mitchell report didn&#039;t seek...or something to that extent that i read on ESPN.

If it&#039;s true, they may have evidence that mcnamee injected roger with banned drugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, McNamee&#8217;s Lawyers claim there is some &#8220;evidence&#8221; that the mitchell report didn&#8217;t seek&#8230;or something to that extent that i read on ESPN.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s true, they may have evidence that mcnamee injected roger with banned drugs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charles killebrew</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79203</link>
		<dc:creator>charles killebrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 04:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79203</guid>
		<description>People who use vitamins swear by them. People who &quot;poo poo&quot;
the use of vitamins, saying that a normal diet is all the body needs, will never change their minds.  I take every vitamin known to mankind.  I am 76, in excellent physical and mental condition, and have been taking vitamins and anything else I deem to be helpful to the immune system for 60 years.  I am 5&#039;10&quot;, 170 lbs, 
6.7% body fat and will challenge anyone my age to any sport (sprints, tennis, golf, bowling, bridge, gin rummy, etc.).
I have personally known elderly people who have been given B12
shots and have greatly benefitted by them.  If it is psychological 
what&#039;s the difference?  It still works!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who use vitamins swear by them. People who &#8220;poo poo&#8221;<br />
the use of vitamins, saying that a normal diet is all the body needs, will never change their minds.  I take every vitamin known to mankind.  I am 76, in excellent physical and mental condition, and have been taking vitamins and anything else I deem to be helpful to the immune system for 60 years.  I am 5&#8217;10&#8243;, 170 lbs,<br />
6.7% body fat and will challenge anyone my age to any sport (sprints, tennis, golf, bowling, bridge, gin rummy, etc.).<br />
I have personally known elderly people who have been given B12<br />
shots and have greatly benefitted by them.  If it is psychological<br />
what&#8217;s the difference?  It still works!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79082</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79082</guid>
		<description>From the Mitchell Report
&lt;blockquote&gt;
In that investigation, Palmeiro said he had received injectable, and legal, vitamin B12 from Tejada; Palmeiro said it was possible the vitamin B12 had been tainted and had been the reason for his positive test for steroids. Tejada admitted to investigators that he provided injectable vitamin B12 to Palmeiro and two other unidentified Orioles players during the 2005 season. The congressional report said that the Players Association had tested another vial of vitamin B12 provided by Tejada and it showed no signs of steroids.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

B12 may also be slang for steroids, but it is clear that many athletes and non-athletes get actual B12 injections. If Clemens was getting tainted B12 without being aware of it, he would have started failing drug tests. He claims to still take B12. 

In the end, nothing will be resolved here. I don&#039;t see how McNamee is going to succeed in suing Clemens. He didn&#039;t have any documents to give to federal prosecutors, so I doubt he&#039;ll produce any in the future. He has no proof that Clemens is lying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Mitchell Report</p>
<blockquote><p>
In that investigation, Palmeiro said he had received injectable, and legal, vitamin B12 from Tejada; Palmeiro said it was possible the vitamin B12 had been tainted and had been the reason for his positive test for steroids. Tejada admitted to investigators that he provided injectable vitamin B12 to Palmeiro and two other unidentified Orioles players during the 2005 season. The congressional report said that the Players Association had tested another vial of vitamin B12 provided by Tejada and it showed no signs of steroids.
</p></blockquote>
<p>B12 may also be slang for steroids, but it is clear that many athletes and non-athletes get actual B12 injections. If Clemens was getting tainted B12 without being aware of it, he would have started failing drug tests. He claims to still take B12. </p>
<p>In the end, nothing will be resolved here. I don&#8217;t see how McNamee is going to succeed in suing Clemens. He didn&#8217;t have any documents to give to federal prosecutors, so I doubt he&#8217;ll produce any in the future. He has no proof that Clemens is lying.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79077</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79077</guid>
		<description>One interesting note from the first quote is: &quot;However, additional research with certain vitamins appears to be warranted, such as with the vitamin B complex and fine motor control&quot;

Wouldn&#039;t that be fascinating, if it turns out that B12 helps you hit a baseball?

NSIL Mike, I heard the same thing on WEEI in Boston a couple months ago.  Like Ron said, it&#039;s the classic &quot;flaxseed oil&quot; defense... except if the B12 nickname was as popular as Canseco claims, there will be a bunch of guys who take it and Clemens can claim he just never new it really meant steroids.  Palmeiro has already used it, saying he thought he was taking B12 from Tejada, and that it must have been &quot;tainted&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One interesting note from the first quote is: &#8220;However, additional research with certain vitamins appears to be warranted, such as with the vitamin B complex and fine motor control&#8221;</p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t that be fascinating, if it turns out that B12 helps you hit a baseball?</p>
<p>NSIL Mike, I heard the same thing on WEEI in Boston a couple months ago.  Like Ron said, it&#8217;s the classic &#8220;flaxseed oil&#8221; defense&#8230; except if the B12 nickname was as popular as Canseco claims, there will be a bunch of guys who take it and Clemens can claim he just never new it really meant steroids.  Palmeiro has already used it, saying he thought he was taking B12 from Tejada, and that it must have been &#8220;tainted&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/comment-page-1/#comment-79059</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/should-we-ban-vitamin-b12/#comment-79059</guid>
		<description>Before the comments get off track, let me make something clear. I have no idea what Clemens may or may not have injected in his body. That is not the point of this post. I am just curious as to why so many athletes use actual B12 (they do) and what the effects might be. It turns out that it does nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before the comments get off track, let me make something clear. I have no idea what Clemens may or may not have injected in his body. That is not the point of this post. I am just curious as to why so many athletes use actual B12 (they do) and what the effects might be. It turns out that it does nothing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

