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	<title>Comments on: What Do the Statistics Say about Roger Clemens&#8217;s Steroid Use?</title>
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	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-89967</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-89967</guid>
		<description>You are all missing the point: the two of them are out of baseball, hopefully for good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are all missing the point: the two of them are out of baseball, hopefully for good.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-89192</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 03:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-89192</guid>
		<description>Greg,
I&#039;d say the one person implicated but never proven would be Lance Armstrong, though it seems as most Europeans believe he did and Americans believe he didn&#039;t.

Kent,
you&#039;ve got it backwards.  Should McNamee be implicated by others, his stash of medical waste implicates those he believed would deny to their dying breath (Clemens).  He waited til now for two reasons:

1)  He felt obligated to tell the Feds and Mitchell Report investigators what he knew but still felt a sense of loyalty to Clemens, so he did not want to bury him with devastating proof (this loyalty and regret over implicating Clemens is all over that taped phone call).

2) Once Clemens played the tape, and filed his lawsuit, McNamee understood that there could be no more loyalty.  His lawyers said &quot;this is war&quot; and like a good general, they waited until the right moment to strike.  That moment came when Clemens made his public statement affirming that he had repeated his denials while under oath.  Now the damage done to Clemens will be greatest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,<br />
I&#8217;d say the one person implicated but never proven would be Lance Armstrong, though it seems as most Europeans believe he did and Americans believe he didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Kent,<br />
you&#8217;ve got it backwards.  Should McNamee be implicated by others, his stash of medical waste implicates those he believed would deny to their dying breath (Clemens).  He waited til now for two reasons:</p>
<p>1)  He felt obligated to tell the Feds and Mitchell Report investigators what he knew but still felt a sense of loyalty to Clemens, so he did not want to bury him with devastating proof (this loyalty and regret over implicating Clemens is all over that taped phone call).</p>
<p>2) Once Clemens played the tape, and filed his lawsuit, McNamee understood that there could be no more loyalty.  His lawyers said &#8220;this is war&#8221; and like a good general, they waited until the right moment to strike.  That moment came when Clemens made his public statement affirming that he had repeated his denials while under oath.  Now the damage done to Clemens will be greatest.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-89140</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-89140</guid>
		<description>Since thses accusations of sports figures&#039; use of steroids or other performance enhancers first began, has any of the accused been shown to be ultimately innocent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since thses accusations of sports figures&#8217; use of steroids or other performance enhancers first began, has any of the accused been shown to be ultimately innocent?</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Ninomiya</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-88984</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Ninomiya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-88984</guid>
		<description>Common sense suggests it is highly unlikely a trainer would keep used syringes with illegal substances in them for seven years. Why would he do that? It is unsanitary and implicates him in a crime. Also if he had these why did he wait until now to hand them over? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Common sense suggests it is highly unlikely a trainer would keep used syringes with illegal substances in them for seven years. Why would he do that? It is unsanitary and implicates him in a crime. Also if he had these why did he wait until now to hand them over?</p>
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		<title>By: slugfest</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-88007</link>
		<dc:creator>slugfest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-88007</guid>
		<description>“Heavy use” of steroids is in the eye of the beholder. I said it above, no one has contradicted it yet: 16-21 shots over three different periods of time of use does not, in my opinion, rise to the level of a true heavy user of steroids such as Bonds, Caminiti, Canseco.&quot;

I&#039;d argue that the &quot;abuse&quot; of steroids would hinder performance more than benefit it.  Clemens, at least in my opinion, seemed to be taking it in the dosages that would be the most effective - resulting not in too much muscle mass gained,but enough of a benefit to enhance his performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Heavy use” of steroids is in the eye of the beholder. I said it above, no one has contradicted it yet: 16-21 shots over three different periods of time of use does not, in my opinion, rise to the level of a true heavy user of steroids such as Bonds, Caminiti, Canseco.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d argue that the &#8220;abuse&#8221; of steroids would hinder performance more than benefit it.  Clemens, at least in my opinion, seemed to be taking it in the dosages that would be the most effective &#8211; resulting not in too much muscle mass gained,but enough of a benefit to enhance his performance.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-87710</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-87710</guid>
		<description>Tex said:
Some of you are missing the point regarding McNamee’s motive to lie to federal investigators. The Feds thought (for whatever reasons) that the “truth” was that Clemens had used steroids.
************************

There is zero evidence whatsoever for this assumption.  

The only source for this assertion is Rusty Hardin, Clemens&#039; attorney.  And while asserting that McNamee was &quot;pressured&quot; by the Feds, Hardin tries to have it both ways:  While using McNamee&#039;s supposed statement that he was &quot;pressured&quot; by the Feds in support of the libel suit, Hardin also stated in the lawsuit that he does NOT accuse the Feds of misconduct.

That&#039;s the sort of chutzpah you get with a $500 an hour lawyer.

But most importantly, there is zero evidence whatsoever that the Feds assumed that Clemens was dirty and sought to use McNamee to &quot;prove&quot; it.  Furthermore, doubts have already been cast on Hardin&#039;s description of McNamee&#039;s Mitchell testimony as similar to a &quot;cold war interrogation&quot;.  Mitchell has denied that account in the strongest terms possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tex said:<br />
Some of you are missing the point regarding McNamee’s motive to lie to federal investigators. The Feds thought (for whatever reasons) that the “truth” was that Clemens had used steroids.<br />
************************</p>
<p>There is zero evidence whatsoever for this assumption.  </p>
<p>The only source for this assertion is Rusty Hardin, Clemens&#8217; attorney.  And while asserting that McNamee was &#8220;pressured&#8221; by the Feds, Hardin tries to have it both ways:  While using McNamee&#8217;s supposed statement that he was &#8220;pressured&#8221; by the Feds in support of the libel suit, Hardin also stated in the lawsuit that he does NOT accuse the Feds of misconduct.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the sort of chutzpah you get with a $500 an hour lawyer.</p>
<p>But most importantly, there is zero evidence whatsoever that the Feds assumed that Clemens was dirty and sought to use McNamee to &#8220;prove&#8221; it.  Furthermore, doubts have already been cast on Hardin&#8217;s description of McNamee&#8217;s Mitchell testimony as similar to a &#8220;cold war interrogation&#8221;.  Mitchell has denied that account in the strongest terms possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Tex</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-87696</link>
		<dc:creator>Tex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-87696</guid>
		<description>Some of you are missing the point regarding McNamee&#039;s motive to lie to federal investigators.  The Feds thought (for whatever reasons) that the &quot;truth&quot; was that Clemens had used steroids.  Then McNamee was threatened with jail if he did not tell the &quot;truth.&quot;  So to avoid jail, McNamee tells the &quot;truth&quot; as defined by the Feds--i.e., that Clemens used steroids.  Presto--McNamee avoids jail, but the the truth has not been told, only the &quot;truth&quot; as defined by the Feds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of you are missing the point regarding McNamee&#8217;s motive to lie to federal investigators.  The Feds thought (for whatever reasons) that the &#8220;truth&#8221; was that Clemens had used steroids.  Then McNamee was threatened with jail if he did not tell the &#8220;truth.&#8221;  So to avoid jail, McNamee tells the &#8220;truth&#8221; as defined by the Feds&#8211;i.e., that Clemens used steroids.  Presto&#8211;McNamee avoids jail, but the the truth has not been told, only the &#8220;truth&#8221; as defined by the Feds.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-87542</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If you leave out &quot;HGH&quot; from your reasoning, Brent, your last paragraph makes all kinds of sense.

There are no MLB testing procedures for HGH in place at this time.  Roger Clemens allegedly said he doesn&#039;t like the &quot;belly button shots&quot; that presumably are the only way to administer HGH.  Therefore if he was doing PEDs, steroids would likely be the  testable illegally obtained/banned substance that Clemens would have had to flush from his system before donning a MLB uniform (either Yankee or Astro in the tinelines discussed).

Up to last year, the MLBPA was actually forewarning players when the testing would be done, and it was usually done early in the season.  Therefore it makes all the sense in the world for Roger Clemens to demand a shortened season, as he did for both the Astros and the Yankees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you leave out &#8220;HGH&#8221; from your reasoning, Brent, your last paragraph makes all kinds of sense.</p>
<p>There are no MLB testing procedures for HGH in place at this time.  Roger Clemens allegedly said he doesn&#8217;t like the &#8220;belly button shots&#8221; that presumably are the only way to administer HGH.  Therefore if he was doing PEDs, steroids would likely be the  testable illegally obtained/banned substance that Clemens would have had to flush from his system before donning a MLB uniform (either Yankee or Astro in the tinelines discussed).</p>
<p>Up to last year, the MLBPA was actually forewarning players when the testing would be done, and it was usually done early in the season.  Therefore it makes all the sense in the world for Roger Clemens to demand a shortened season, as he did for both the Astros and the Yankees.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent Boersma</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-87239</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Boersma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-87239</guid>
		<description>JC, I didn&#039;t have time to read every previous post, but doesn&#039;t it stand to reason that though McNamee may be lying, what he is really lying about is that Clemens has continued using HGH with McNamee since testing has started (in Houston).  

This would explain the weird circumstances and emotions of the phone call.  McNamee feeling stuck between a rock (giving something to the feds so as not to go to jail) and a hard place (not giving up Clemens&#039; using since testing began).

It also makes sense when considering that Clemens has participated in shortened seasons.  Take a round of HGH or steroids before starting his season and then stopping once he&#039;s playing to pass the tests.  Also explains why he&#039;s worn down and been injured toward the end of seasons.  Thanks,

Brent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, I didn&#8217;t have time to read every previous post, but doesn&#8217;t it stand to reason that though McNamee may be lying, what he is really lying about is that Clemens has continued using HGH with McNamee since testing has started (in Houston).  </p>
<p>This would explain the weird circumstances and emotions of the phone call.  McNamee feeling stuck between a rock (giving something to the feds so as not to go to jail) and a hard place (not giving up Clemens&#8217; using since testing began).</p>
<p>It also makes sense when considering that Clemens has participated in shortened seasons.  Take a round of HGH or steroids before starting his season and then stopping once he&#8217;s playing to pass the tests.  Also explains why he&#8217;s worn down and been injured toward the end of seasons.  Thanks,</p>
<p>Brent</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/comment-page-1/#comment-87235</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/01/what-do-the-statistics-say-about-roger-clemenss-steroid-use/#comment-87235</guid>
		<description>William,

I was more interested in the Reason Magazine articles you referenced. 

I just had a long chat with two exercise physiologists. They report that once you stop using the gains evaporate quickly. In some cases, you may actually end up worse off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>I was more interested in the Reason Magazine articles you referenced. </p>
<p>I just had a long chat with two exercise physiologists. They report that once you stop using the gains evaporate quickly. In some cases, you may actually end up worse off.</p>
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