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	<title>Comments on: This Is Getting Ridiculous</title>
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	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: TangoTiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105426</link>
		<dc:creator>TangoTiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105426</guid>
		<description>If you click on my name, I have given an illustration at post 300.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you click on my name, I have given an illustration at post 300.</p>
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		<title>By: TangoTiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105417</link>
		<dc:creator>TangoTiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105417</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;That is a way, but it’s not obvious why it is a preferred method.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Agreed it is not obvious based on my posts here.  I&#039;ve described it in a more deliberate manner on my blog a few times.  The net/net is that it works out as I&#039;ve summarized it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>That is a way, but it’s not obvious why it is a preferred method.</p></blockquote>
<p>Agreed it is not obvious based on my posts here.  I&#8217;ve described it in a more deliberate manner on my blog a few times.  The net/net is that it works out as I&#8217;ve summarized it here.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105416</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105416</guid>
		<description>
&lt;blockquote&gt;Mariano has more influence to how many wins the Yanks will actually win, if he’s pitching mostly in close games than in blowouts. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I get that part. He is not entirely responsible for the WP of the game state nor for being put in the situation. A better starter and corps of relievers preceding his appearance can affect the WP. Closers may be a bit more valuable than inferior relievers, I have acknowledged that many times. It&#039;s the &quot;how much&quot; that is the difficult question. Now, you basically have to max out WPA to justify these contracts, and that is giving way too much credit to closers, in my opinion. 


&lt;blockquote&gt; Ozzie Smith will have more influence in how many runs he saves at SS than at 1B.  The former takes the same number of opps as other relievers, but makes the most of it (like buying stocks on margin).  The latter is given more opps. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

SS have many more fielding opportunities than 1B, which makes SS relatively more valuable than 1B. I don&#039;t get the  stock-buying analogy.  

&lt;blockquote&gt; In either case, their talent level is tied in to how much impact their skills have: they are being leveraged. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Value is tied to the opportunity cost of pitcher skill. Scott Linebrink should have received a contract similar to Francisco Cordero, even though Linebrink doesn&#039;t normally pitch in high-leverage situations. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/11/valuing-cordero-and-linebrink/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;He is similarly talented&lt;/a&gt;. 

&lt;blockquote&gt; As noted in the other thread, the best/easiest way to handle the reliever is to give each reliever a leverage value that is half-way between 1.0 and whatever leverage index his talent level dictates he would find himself in.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is a way, but it&#039;s not obvious why it is a preferred method. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Mariano has more influence to how many wins the Yanks will actually win, if he’s pitching mostly in close games than in blowouts. </p></blockquote>
<p>I get that part. He is not entirely responsible for the WP of the game state nor for being put in the situation. A better starter and corps of relievers preceding his appearance can affect the WP. Closers may be a bit more valuable than inferior relievers, I have acknowledged that many times. It&#8217;s the &#8220;how much&#8221; that is the difficult question. Now, you basically have to max out WPA to justify these contracts, and that is giving way too much credit to closers, in my opinion. </p>
<blockquote><p> Ozzie Smith will have more influence in how many runs he saves at SS than at 1B.  The former takes the same number of opps as other relievers, but makes the most of it (like buying stocks on margin).  The latter is given more opps. </p></blockquote>
<p>SS have many more fielding opportunities than 1B, which makes SS relatively more valuable than 1B. I don&#8217;t get the  stock-buying analogy.  </p>
<blockquote><p> In either case, their talent level is tied in to how much impact their skills have: they are being leveraged. </p></blockquote>
<p>Value is tied to the opportunity cost of pitcher skill. Scott Linebrink should have received a contract similar to Francisco Cordero, even though Linebrink doesn&#8217;t normally pitch in high-leverage situations. <a href="http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/11/valuing-cordero-and-linebrink/" rel="nofollow">He is similarly talented</a>. </p>
<blockquote><p> As noted in the other thread, the best/easiest way to handle the reliever is to give each reliever a leverage value that is half-way between 1.0 and whatever leverage index his talent level dictates he would find himself in.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is a way, but it&#8217;s not obvious why it is a preferred method.</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105414</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105414</guid>
		<description>Mariano has more influence to how many wins the Yanks will actually win, if he&#039;s pitching mostly in close games than in blowouts.  Ozzie Smith will have more influence in how many runs he saves at SS than at 1B.  The former takes the same number of opps as other relievers, but makes the most of it (like buying stocks on margin).  The latter is given more opps.  In either case, their talent level is tied in to how much impact their skills have: they are being leveraged.  As noted in the other thread, the best/easiest way to handle the reliever is to give each reliever a leverage value that is half-way between 1.0 and whatever leverage index his talent level dictates he would find himself in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mariano has more influence to how many wins the Yanks will actually win, if he&#8217;s pitching mostly in close games than in blowouts.  Ozzie Smith will have more influence in how many runs he saves at SS than at 1B.  The former takes the same number of opps as other relievers, but makes the most of it (like buying stocks on margin).  The latter is given more opps.  In either case, their talent level is tied in to how much impact their skills have: they are being leveraged.  As noted in the other thread, the best/easiest way to handle the reliever is to give each reliever a leverage value that is half-way between 1.0 and whatever leverage index his talent level dictates he would find himself in.</p>
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		<title>By: Millsy</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105412</link>
		<dc:creator>Millsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105412</guid>
		<description>There is a unique psychological quality that some pitchers lack.  However, with that said, if you are being paid to play baseball, you should not lack this quality.  I think there is a middle ground here, but I don&#039;t think that premium is worth what these closers are getting paid over the 8th inning guys.  Paying anyone that lacks the ability to handle pressure at the MLB stage would be a mistake in general.

I agree out there it&#039;s different.  But I don&#039;t think it&#039;s different to the point that it would raise a solid middle reliever&#039;s ERA (or whatever metric people use these days...) too significantly.  The point is, if you&#039;re a quality pitcher, why be afraid of the 9th inning?  All of these guys are mentally tough beyond belief.  Everyone said Brad Lidge couldn&#039;t handle the closing spot because Albert Pujols hit a home run off of him...ALBERT PUJOLS!  Now he&#039;s been described as the best closer in the game.  There are other guys like this out there.  Because of such a short pitching sample...these guys get labeled as washed up prematurely.  God forbid they give up a hit to one of the best players ever.  The significance of the 9th inning is greatly overstated...though it does exist to a point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a unique psychological quality that some pitchers lack.  However, with that said, if you are being paid to play baseball, you should not lack this quality.  I think there is a middle ground here, but I don&#8217;t think that premium is worth what these closers are getting paid over the 8th inning guys.  Paying anyone that lacks the ability to handle pressure at the MLB stage would be a mistake in general.</p>
<p>I agree out there it&#8217;s different.  But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s different to the point that it would raise a solid middle reliever&#8217;s ERA (or whatever metric people use these days&#8230;) too significantly.  The point is, if you&#8217;re a quality pitcher, why be afraid of the 9th inning?  All of these guys are mentally tough beyond belief.  Everyone said Brad Lidge couldn&#8217;t handle the closing spot because Albert Pujols hit a home run off of him&#8230;ALBERT PUJOLS!  Now he&#8217;s been described as the best closer in the game.  There are other guys like this out there.  Because of such a short pitching sample&#8230;these guys get labeled as washed up prematurely.  God forbid they give up a hit to one of the best players ever.  The significance of the 9th inning is greatly overstated&#8230;though it does exist to a point.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105409</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105409</guid>
		<description>&quot;Your wrong&quot; followed by an insult. How is this convincing?   

Alejandro Pena said the ninth inning is no different than any other inning.  Other closers have stated otherwise. I agree with Pena.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Your wrong&#8221; followed by an insult. How is this convincing?   </p>
<p>Alejandro Pena said the ninth inning is no different than any other inning.  Other closers have stated otherwise. I agree with Pena.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105408</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105408</guid>
		<description>Your statement regarding closers, it matters more how well a pitcher pitches, not when they pitch...is I&#039;m afraid to say, incorrect.  I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ve ever played baseball, nevermind at a high level, but being able to deal with the pressures of that last inning is simply different than any other inning.  I will agree starters are more valuable as they pitch enough innings and have more pressure as they are responsible for far more of the game, but to compare a middle reliever who is expected to pitch the seventh inning when at least if you blow it your team can still come back is not at all comparable to the pressures of the ninth.  It is absurd and frankly the words of an economist to say otherwise. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your statement regarding closers, it matters more how well a pitcher pitches, not when they pitch&#8230;is I&#8217;m afraid to say, incorrect.  I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve ever played baseball, nevermind at a high level, but being able to deal with the pressures of that last inning is simply different than any other inning.  I will agree starters are more valuable as they pitch enough innings and have more pressure as they are responsible for far more of the game, but to compare a middle reliever who is expected to pitch the seventh inning when at least if you blow it your team can still come back is not at all comparable to the pressures of the ninth.  It is absurd and frankly the words of an economist to say otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105403</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105403</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001661/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Marty DiBergi&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;: Why don&#039;t you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?  
 &lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001302/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nigel Tufnel&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;: [&lt;em class=&quot;fine&quot;&gt;pause&lt;/em&gt;] These go to eleven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong><a href="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001661/" rel="nofollow">Marty DiBergi</a></strong>: Why don&#8217;t you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?<br />
 <strong><a href="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001302/" rel="nofollow">Nigel Tufnel</a></strong>: [<em class="fine">pause</em>] These go to eleven.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105392</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105392</guid>
		<description>I think this will end up being an ok deal for the Indians. IMO the most important part a MLB team that whats to win in Oct. is to have a very good bullpen. The teams that win in Oct. all have very good bullpens. You can have ok hitting or ok starters but you have to have great bullpens. If you look at the other options out there for the Indians this was worthth $10 mil. gamble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this will end up being an ok deal for the Indians. IMO the most important part a MLB team that whats to win in Oct. is to have a very good bullpen. The teams that win in Oct. all have very good bullpens. You can have ok hitting or ok starters but you have to have great bullpens. If you look at the other options out there for the Indians this was worthth $10 mil. gamble.</p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/this-is-getting-ridiculous/comment-page-1/#comment-105388</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1183#comment-105388</guid>
		<description>Colin, replacement-level for relievers is 20 runs below average.  It&#039;s maybe five.

But I agree that JC&#039;s analysis seems to drastically underrate the leverage factor.  Here&#039;s what I&#039;ve been doing for KRod, although my replacement-level is a bit high:

RAR = (4.75 - 3.25) / 9 * 72 * 1.8 = about 21 RAR or 2 WAR, which is going for $10MM on the FA market these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colin, replacement-level for relievers is 20 runs below average.  It&#8217;s maybe five.</p>
<p>But I agree that JC&#8217;s analysis seems to drastically underrate the leverage factor.  Here&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been doing for KRod, although my replacement-level is a bit high:</p>
<p>RAR = (4.75 &#8211; 3.25) / 9 * 72 * 1.8 = about 21 RAR or 2 WAR, which is going for $10MM on the FA market these days.</p>
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