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	<title>Comments on: What If&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105608</link>
		<dc:creator>Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105608</guid>
		<description>On Howard: shouldn&#039;t you take into account the rifts that have come up between the team and Howard though?

The Phillies may have been able to control his cost more easily, but from what I&#039;ve seen it seems to have pissed him off a little, and I think it is much more likely that Howard bolts the first chance he gets, or at least seriously entertains the idea.

The Braves like to keep a strong nucleus together (see Smoltz and Chipper,) and keeping a guy in the minors when he is clearly ready to play in MLB doesn&#039;t help build that bond.

I agree that it doesn&#039;t hurt to have a glut of talent at a position, but I really do think Burrell and Dunn are more likely to be expensive liabilities in 2 years than impact players... and I&#039;d hate to have to decide between eating a huge contract, sticking a dissatisfied player on the bench, or keeping Heyward in the minors when he&#039;s ready to blossom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Howard: shouldn&#8217;t you take into account the rifts that have come up between the team and Howard though?</p>
<p>The Phillies may have been able to control his cost more easily, but from what I&#8217;ve seen it seems to have pissed him off a little, and I think it is much more likely that Howard bolts the first chance he gets, or at least seriously entertains the idea.</p>
<p>The Braves like to keep a strong nucleus together (see Smoltz and Chipper,) and keeping a guy in the minors when he is clearly ready to play in MLB doesn&#8217;t help build that bond.</p>
<p>I agree that it doesn&#8217;t hurt to have a glut of talent at a position, but I really do think Burrell and Dunn are more likely to be expensive liabilities in 2 years than impact players&#8230; and I&#8217;d hate to have to decide between eating a huge contract, sticking a dissatisfied player on the bench, or keeping Heyward in the minors when he&#8217;s ready to blossom.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105593</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105593</guid>
		<description>I believe the bigger problem for the Phillies was the opportunity cost that they incurred by holding two players with similar talent and production capacity and not pursuing their biggest need: starting pitching.  Howard was considerably cheaper than Thome, being 3 years away from arbitration eligibility.  The Phillies could have landed at least two front-line starting pitching prospects in exchange for Thome.  Instead, they made the nonsensical move of trading Thome and $22 million cash for an overrated outfielder in Rowand and two pitchers with AAA-level talent.  I&#039;m still scratching my head over that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the bigger problem for the Phillies was the opportunity cost that they incurred by holding two players with similar talent and production capacity and not pursuing their biggest need: starting pitching.  Howard was considerably cheaper than Thome, being 3 years away from arbitration eligibility.  The Phillies could have landed at least two front-line starting pitching prospects in exchange for Thome.  Instead, they made the nonsensical move of trading Thome and $22 million cash for an overrated outfielder in Rowand and two pitchers with AAA-level talent.  I&#8217;m still scratching my head over that one.</p>
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		<title>By: John Salmon</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105585</link>
		<dc:creator>John Salmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105585</guid>
		<description>Sorry about saying the analysis made no sense, but arguing that losing some of Ryan&#039;s peak years wasn&#039;t a bad move because many players peak around their age 29 season ignores the facts of the situation. You put that in your post. So it&#039;s subject to debate. 

Track Howard&#039;s numbers the last two years (27 and 28 YO)-he&#039;s losing ground in BA, OBA, and adj. OPS. The only year Howard&#039;s adj OPS was worse than in &#039;08 was in the 39 AB season he had in his debut year (&#039;04). And note that he is a terrible fielder and baserunner. 

There is no way Howard is now at the peak of his game; his career track screams &quot;old player skills&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about saying the analysis made no sense, but arguing that losing some of Ryan&#8217;s peak years wasn&#8217;t a bad move because many players peak around their age 29 season ignores the facts of the situation. You put that in your post. So it&#8217;s subject to debate. </p>
<p>Track Howard&#8217;s numbers the last two years (27 and 28 YO)-he&#8217;s losing ground in BA, OBA, and adj. OPS. The only year Howard&#8217;s adj OPS was worse than in &#8217;08 was in the 39 AB season he had in his debut year (&#8217;04). And note that he is a terrible fielder and baserunner. </p>
<p>There is no way Howard is now at the peak of his game; his career track screams &#8220;old player skills&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105554</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105554</guid>
		<description>There is no need to tell anyone that there analysis &quot;makes no sense.&quot;  You are free to disagree, but be polite. 

I do not believe the Phillies lost out on his best years, and it would be odd if he was already in decline.  Players tend to peak around 29; thus, he&#039;s right at the top of his game just as he faces his final years of arbitration. That&#039;s about as perfect as you can plan a player&#039;s progression to the majors. It might turn out that Howard drops off a cliff next year and the Phillies missed out on his age 22-23, but I think it&#039;s still the smart move. 

As for the Braves, which is the subject of the post, I don&#039;t think any of the Braves prospects will suffer from being blocked. And if they are blocked, the other players can be traded because they have value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no need to tell anyone that there analysis &#8220;makes no sense.&#8221;  You are free to disagree, but be polite. </p>
<p>I do not believe the Phillies lost out on his best years, and it would be odd if he was already in decline.  Players tend to peak around 29; thus, he&#8217;s right at the top of his game just as he faces his final years of arbitration. That&#8217;s about as perfect as you can plan a player&#8217;s progression to the majors. It might turn out that Howard drops off a cliff next year and the Phillies missed out on his age 22-23, but I think it&#8217;s still the smart move. </p>
<p>As for the Braves, which is the subject of the post, I don&#8217;t think any of the Braves prospects will suffer from being blocked. And if they are blocked, the other players can be traded because they have value.</p>
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		<title>By: John Salmon</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105545</link>
		<dc:creator>John Salmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105545</guid>
		<description>The Thome/Howard anaylsis ignores the obvious fact that because of Thome&#039;s big contract, he was playing when a more-than-ready Howard should&#039;ve been. 

Considering Howard&#039;s body type/skills, as early a debut as possible was in order-this is not someone who would age well. Howard ended up not playing in the majors in at least of his peak years. He is already in decline, so JC&#039;s analysis, sorry to say, makes no sense. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Thome/Howard anaylsis ignores the obvious fact that because of Thome&#8217;s big contract, he was playing when a more-than-ready Howard should&#8217;ve been. </p>
<p>Considering Howard&#8217;s body type/skills, as early a debut as possible was in order-this is not someone who would age well. Howard ended up not playing in the majors in at least of his peak years. He is already in decline, so JC&#8217;s analysis, sorry to say, makes no sense. </p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105533</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105533</guid>
		<description>JC,

Great note in 7.  This is often lost in review.  Generally a position player good enough to be an average major leaguer porobably peaks around 29So, if you have 6 and 2/3 cost controlled years, you want those to center as close to 29 as possible.  So, for college juniors, You should want them to debut around 26 and for high schoolers no earlier than 23, Junior College guys, 24. 

Applying it specifically to Francouer, he started counting to service time two years earlier than he &quot;had&quot; to.  So, he will complete his &quot;pre-arb&quot; after 2011 when he is 27.  So, theoretically, taking out his first part season that clearly was a result of scouting reports not catching up, Frncoeur will have his best years after his cost controlled status is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC,</p>
<p>Great note in 7.  This is often lost in review.  Generally a position player good enough to be an average major leaguer porobably peaks around 29So, if you have 6 and 2/3 cost controlled years, you want those to center as close to 29 as possible.  So, for college juniors, You should want them to debut around 26 and for high schoolers no earlier than 23, Junior College guys, 24. </p>
<p>Applying it specifically to Francouer, he started counting to service time two years earlier than he &#8220;had&#8221; to.  So, he will complete his &#8220;pre-arb&#8221; after 2011 when he is 27.  So, theoretically, taking out his first part season that clearly was a result of scouting reports not catching up, Frncoeur will have his best years after his cost controlled status is over.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105532</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105532</guid>
		<description>The ability to retain Howard&#039;s service time through his peak years was a HUGE benefit.  That was a benefit, not a cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ability to retain Howard&#8217;s service time through his peak years was a HUGE benefit.  That was a benefit, not a cost.</p>
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		<title>By: Sciorsci</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105531</link>
		<dc:creator>Sciorsci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105531</guid>
		<description>&quot;Having Jim Thome when Ryan Howard was ready to play wasn’t a problem for the Phillies.&quot;

I disagree.  The Phillies left Howard in the minors about a year longer than necessary specifically because he was blocked by Thome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Having Jim Thome when Ryan Howard was ready to play wasn’t a problem for the Phillies.&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree.  The Phillies left Howard in the minors about a year longer than necessary specifically because he was blocked by Thome.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron E.</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105529</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105529</guid>
		<description>The Braves signed Greg Norton today for $800K and what&#039;s truly sad is Norton had better stats last year than Francoeur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Braves signed Greg Norton today for $800K and what&#8217;s truly sad is Norton had better stats last year than Francoeur.</p>
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		<title>By: LaMarcus Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-105528</link>
		<dc:creator>LaMarcus Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=1221#comment-105528</guid>
		<description>Guys, Wren might be smarter than you think. Suppose Wren IS interested in possibly signing Burrell/Dunn but doesn&#039;t want to do so just right yet. Maybe he wants to wait until his rotation-building is more complete. 

If so, then the last thing he wants to do is to sing praises about Burrell/Dunn in the media right now and drive up the perceived demand for those players. 

Who really knows? But if you&#039;re a smart GM, you keep your cards close to your chest. Who anticipated the Vasquez/Flowers trade until right before it was announced?

In other words, let&#039;s not assume DOB always makes accurate guesses about what&#039;s on Wren&#039;s mind. Maybe sometimes the Braves front office feeds the AJC misinformation intentionally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, Wren might be smarter than you think. Suppose Wren IS interested in possibly signing Burrell/Dunn but doesn&#8217;t want to do so just right yet. Maybe he wants to wait until his rotation-building is more complete. </p>
<p>If so, then the last thing he wants to do is to sing praises about Burrell/Dunn in the media right now and drive up the perceived demand for those players. </p>
<p>Who really knows? But if you&#8217;re a smart GM, you keep your cards close to your chest. Who anticipated the Vasquez/Flowers trade until right before it was announced?</p>
<p>In other words, let&#8217;s not assume DOB always makes accurate guesses about what&#8217;s on Wren&#8217;s mind. Maybe sometimes the Braves front office feeds the AJC misinformation intentionally.</p>
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