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	<title>Comments on: Hot Stove Myths</title>
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	<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/</link>
	<description>Economic Thinking about Baseball</description>
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		<title>By: The RAB Guide to Sanity During the Hot Stove Season &#124; River Avenue Blues</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106880</link>
		<dc:creator>The RAB Guide to Sanity During the Hot Stove Season &#124; River Avenue Blues</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106880</guid>
		<description>[...] deals than other GMs. That doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re always ripe for the fleecing. J.C. Bradbury of Sabernomics has broken down some general manager myths, and explains why they&#8217;re just not true. They [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] deals than other GMs. That doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re always ripe for the fleecing. J.C. Bradbury of Sabernomics has broken down some general manager myths, and explains why they&#8217;re just not true. They [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rodney King</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106866</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodney King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106866</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to say thanks to Eric M. Van, because if he hadn&#039;t made the post detailing the MANY fallacies in JC&#039;s arguments, I would have spent even more time being mad at how terribly wrong this post is and how it ignores both market facts and general sabermetric studies.  I know you think that since you&#039;re an economist with a Ph.D you are above the sort of discourse on Fangraphs and Book Blog honing their statistical projections and analysis skills, but obviously you are not scientifically looking at your assumptions and models and comparing them to reality.  Because time and again, they just do not hold up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to say thanks to Eric M. Van, because if he hadn&#8217;t made the post detailing the MANY fallacies in JC&#8217;s arguments, I would have spent even more time being mad at how terribly wrong this post is and how it ignores both market facts and general sabermetric studies.  I know you think that since you&#8217;re an economist with a Ph.D you are above the sort of discourse on Fangraphs and Book Blog honing their statistical projections and analysis skills, but obviously you are not scientifically looking at your assumptions and models and comparing them to reality.  Because time and again, they just do not hold up.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric M. Van</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106854</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric M. Van</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106854</guid>
		<description>Well, I was one of those message board posters in alleged possession of knowledge that many GMs lacked, until John Henry hired me to have just that for the Red Sox.  So let me rewrite your myths 1 and 2 from the POV of a practicing baseball ops consultant.

*GMs can sell high or buy low on players based simply on their recent offensive performance as measured by overall statistics.*  In fact, regression analysis of FA contracts shows that contract AAV is weighted very much like plain-vanilla projection systems (e.g., last three seasons 3-2-1).  So every GM has an innate sense of how a player projects based on his last few seasons, _all things being equal_.  In order to successfully sell high or buy low on player offense, GMs need to go deeper into the numbers in order to determine which players might over- or under-perform their projections.  Note that is possible to buy low on a player coming off a great season (e.g., Adrian Gonzalez this year) or sell high on a player after a collapse, if you have reason to believe he will regress _less_ to the mean than usual.  You don&#039;t have to be a &quot;colossal moron&quot; as a GM to have a poor sense of which players are due for unusually strong or weak course corrections, you just have to be one of the sizable minority that does no in-house detailed analysis.  Numerous internet savants correctly pegged Nick Swisher as a good candidate to bounce back more completely than usual from his off year.

It is also possible to buy low and sell high because GMs as a whole do not accurately value an aspect of performance other than offense.  As recently as four years ago defense was _absolutely free_ on the FA agent market (i.e., adding UZR or Fielding Bible Plus / Minus to a regression model with VORP and age added nothing at all), and it is almost certainly true that it is still undervalued.  Baserunning is probably still pretty much free.  Chone Figgins projects to have about $12M of hitting value next year, about $5.5M of defense, and about $2.5M just going from first to third on singles and scoring from first on doubles (at which he is the game&#039;s best player).  But he is not going to get $20M a year. 

*The number of free agents at a position affects the price of free agents at a position*.  This is wrong on many levels.  Even if free agency were the only source of new talent, it would still be wrong, because supply would always equal demand.  In fact, the supply vs. demand situation for any position during the off-season is enormously complex and highly volatile.  There will be teams with two above-average players, usually one veteran and one rookie (e.g., when the Phillies had Jim Thome and Ryan Howard), teams with two starting-quality players -- one above-average and one below whom they could keep as an exceptionally good reserve, teams whose starter is merely below average but consistent, teams whose best candidate has upside to be above average but projects to be below, and teams with nothing credible.  Every GM makes his decision to move or acquire a player based on their own situation and the market.  All it takes to turn a seller&#039;s market into a buyer&#039;s market or vice versa is two GMs changing their minds as to whether or not they want to make a change at their position.  And every GM is making that decision based on their estimation of what they think everyone else will do.  Some may even be spinning their situation in order to influence the market, e.g., Kenny Williams of the White Sox announcing that the newly acquired Mark Teahen will be his starting 3B when he is almost certainly a fallback plan against the failure to sign Figgins, Adrian Beltre, Troy Glaus, or trade for someone better.  The only rule of thumb is that the market at any position is unlikely to play out as expected  -- witness last year, when none of the young catchers on the trading block (Saltalamacchia / Teagarden / Ramirez, Montero) were moved despite catcher being a position in demand.  Very few people foresaw the collapse of the market for good-hitting, weak-fielding OFers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was one of those message board posters in alleged possession of knowledge that many GMs lacked, until John Henry hired me to have just that for the Red Sox.  So let me rewrite your myths 1 and 2 from the POV of a practicing baseball ops consultant.</p>
<p>*GMs can sell high or buy low on players based simply on their recent offensive performance as measured by overall statistics.*  In fact, regression analysis of FA contracts shows that contract AAV is weighted very much like plain-vanilla projection systems (e.g., last three seasons 3-2-1).  So every GM has an innate sense of how a player projects based on his last few seasons, _all things being equal_.  In order to successfully sell high or buy low on player offense, GMs need to go deeper into the numbers in order to determine which players might over- or under-perform their projections.  Note that is possible to buy low on a player coming off a great season (e.g., Adrian Gonzalez this year) or sell high on a player after a collapse, if you have reason to believe he will regress _less_ to the mean than usual.  You don&#8217;t have to be a &#8220;colossal moron&#8221; as a GM to have a poor sense of which players are due for unusually strong or weak course corrections, you just have to be one of the sizable minority that does no in-house detailed analysis.  Numerous internet savants correctly pegged Nick Swisher as a good candidate to bounce back more completely than usual from his off year.</p>
<p>It is also possible to buy low and sell high because GMs as a whole do not accurately value an aspect of performance other than offense.  As recently as four years ago defense was _absolutely free_ on the FA agent market (i.e., adding UZR or Fielding Bible Plus / Minus to a regression model with VORP and age added nothing at all), and it is almost certainly true that it is still undervalued.  Baserunning is probably still pretty much free.  Chone Figgins projects to have about $12M of hitting value next year, about $5.5M of defense, and about $2.5M just going from first to third on singles and scoring from first on doubles (at which he is the game&#8217;s best player).  But he is not going to get $20M a year. </p>
<p>*The number of free agents at a position affects the price of free agents at a position*.  This is wrong on many levels.  Even if free agency were the only source of new talent, it would still be wrong, because supply would always equal demand.  In fact, the supply vs. demand situation for any position during the off-season is enormously complex and highly volatile.  There will be teams with two above-average players, usually one veteran and one rookie (e.g., when the Phillies had Jim Thome and Ryan Howard), teams with two starting-quality players &#8212; one above-average and one below whom they could keep as an exceptionally good reserve, teams whose starter is merely below average but consistent, teams whose best candidate has upside to be above average but projects to be below, and teams with nothing credible.  Every GM makes his decision to move or acquire a player based on their own situation and the market.  All it takes to turn a seller&#8217;s market into a buyer&#8217;s market or vice versa is two GMs changing their minds as to whether or not they want to make a change at their position.  And every GM is making that decision based on their estimation of what they think everyone else will do.  Some may even be spinning their situation in order to influence the market, e.g., Kenny Williams of the White Sox announcing that the newly acquired Mark Teahen will be his starting 3B when he is almost certainly a fallback plan against the failure to sign Figgins, Adrian Beltre, Troy Glaus, or trade for someone better.  The only rule of thumb is that the market at any position is unlikely to play out as expected  &#8212; witness last year, when none of the young catchers on the trading block (Saltalamacchia / Teagarden / Ramirez, Montero) were moved despite catcher being a position in demand.  Very few people foresaw the collapse of the market for good-hitting, weak-fielding OFers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106853</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 02:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106853</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to add that while the buy low/sell high concept may not exist in theory, I would argues that it happens quite often actually in baseball. I think back specifically to last year when the Yankees bought very low on Nick Swisher and made out like bandits this year because of it. Just compare the prospects that the A&#039;s got for Swisher followed by the prospects that the White Sox got for Swisher just a year later and then try and tell me that buying low does not exist in baseball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to add that while the buy low/sell high concept may not exist in theory, I would argues that it happens quite often actually in baseball. I think back specifically to last year when the Yankees bought very low on Nick Swisher and made out like bandits this year because of it. Just compare the prospects that the A&#8217;s got for Swisher followed by the prospects that the White Sox got for Swisher just a year later and then try and tell me that buying low does not exist in baseball.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106852</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 02:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106852</guid>
		<description>&quot;Wow, there are a lot of teams looking for shortstops this year, so the free agents on the market are going to get big bucks wit all these teams competing for their services.&quot;

Except once again, if there are 4 free agent starting shortstops, but two of the teams fill their holes with the Alcides Escobars of the world (so only two starting jobs needed), those 4 free agent shortstops have less bargaining power than if there were 4 openings.

And Theo Epstein basically just justified the Hermida trade with saying he was buying low.  It&#039;s a result of having differing subjective opinions i.e. the Sawx think Hermida is better than the Marlins do, but it&#039;s still Theo thinking he is buying Hermida at the low point in his career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Wow, there are a lot of teams looking for shortstops this year, so the free agents on the market are going to get big bucks wit all these teams competing for their services.&#8221;</p>
<p>Except once again, if there are 4 free agent starting shortstops, but two of the teams fill their holes with the Alcides Escobars of the world (so only two starting jobs needed), those 4 free agent shortstops have less bargaining power than if there were 4 openings.</p>
<p>And Theo Epstein basically just justified the Hermida trade with saying he was buying low.  It&#8217;s a result of having differing subjective opinions i.e. the Sawx think Hermida is better than the Marlins do, but it&#8217;s still Theo thinking he is buying Hermida at the low point in his career.</p>
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		<title>By: Melvin Nieves</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106849</link>
		<dc:creator>Melvin Nieves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106849</guid>
		<description>&quot;If that&#039;s one of my worst mistakes -- to sign somebody who has 20 home runs and 97 RBIs -- I&#039;ll take it,&quot;

-Dayton Moore, on Jose Guillen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If that&#8217;s one of my worst mistakes &#8212; to sign somebody who has 20 home runs and 97 RBIs &#8212; I&#8217;ll take it,&#8221;</p>
<p>-Dayton Moore, on Jose Guillen</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106847</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106847</guid>
		<description>And you have yet to address your statement: 

&quot;For example, if there are four good shortstops on the market this means that there are also four openings on teams&quot;

Your response ignored that fact that this is incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And you have yet to address your statement: </p>
<p>&#8220;For example, if there are four good shortstops on the market this means that there are also four openings on teams&#8221;</p>
<p>Your response ignored that fact that this is incorrect.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106845</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106845</guid>
		<description>You also are not the only person to ignore my response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You also are not the only person to ignore my response.</p>
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		<title>By: Carmelo</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106844</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106844</guid>
		<description>ok...I am glad I wasn&#039;t the ONLY one to notice the falacy of the second point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok&#8230;I am glad I wasn&#8217;t the ONLY one to notice the falacy of the second point.</p>
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		<title>By: Carmelo</title>
		<link>http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/comment-page-1/#comment-106843</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/?p=2043#comment-106843</guid>
		<description>How can you say that when there are 4 free agent short-stops that there are 4 teams that need a short-stop. That is negating the possibility that the team with a free-agent has an up and coming shortstop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can you say that when there are 4 free agent short-stops that there are 4 teams that need a short-stop. That is negating the possibility that the team with a free-agent has an up and coming shortstop.</p>
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